Nia Glassie

[crocos]

Originally Posted by Redneck

The bill's stated objective was not to "completely eradicate all abuse from this day forward for the rest of eternity"

Yeah... I know that. I never said anything suggesting that. What is your point?

My point was the bill was a nice idea, but doesn't actually provide any extra protection.

[Redneck]

Originally Posted by crocos

The Anti-smacking bill achieved precisely squat.

Ummm...

[crocos]

Originally Posted by Redneck

Ummm...

Well? There is nothing that can be prosecuted under that bill that couldn't under the existing assault laws.

[Redneck]

Ok, so you want a discussion of the anti-smacking bill in a thread describing a situation completely and utterly unrelated to the anti-smacking bill?

[zeekiorage]

Originally Posted by _Incubus_

Its times like this I wish more people support the death penalty.

Death would be too quick, too painless but at the same time I can't really think of a punishment harsh enough that would equate to the kind of abuse these people were inflicting on that helpless child.

[[WanG] Wandarah]

Introduce them to Haydos.

[EvilLumpy]

Originally Posted by Redneck

Ok, so you want a discussion of the anti-smacking bill in a thread describing a situation completely and utterly unrelated to the anti-smacking bill?

I believe it's that it's not the anti-smacking bill that's the problem here, it's the fact that it seems to be the kind of thing that gets done in attempt to mitigate these horrible stories when in actual fact it deals with something else entirely.

It's kind of like this:

People: Govt, do something, this is awful!
Govt: We all worked together on this anti-smacking bill thingy, aint it great?
People: Yeah but, it doesn't work in this situation...
Govt: Orly? Umm... have some tax cuts.

[Redneck]

I don't remember hearing any proponent of the anti-smacking bill claim that it was to address a situation like this

[caffiend]

Originally Posted by A Corpse

It scares me that if I can get this upset about a little girl I've never met and likely never would have, what would it be like if my own daughter was hurt by someone.

I know what you mean. I'm not a father but I am an uncle to 4 nieces under the age of 4 who I love dearly. If anyone does anything deliberate to harm them I will be either in a hospital, a jail cell or a coffin before I stopped seeking violent retribution.

And yes, I realise that sounds like pathetic, primal, try-hard-tough-guy wankery and it probably isn't very rational. But I honestly believe that at least in a momentary sense it's true.

[cyc]

Originally Posted by crocos

Well? There is nothing that can be prosecuted under that bill that couldn't under the existing assault laws.

Well, what you're saying is true but it merely shows that you've misunderstood the purpose behind the amendment. The new section in the Crimes Act lowered the threshold tolerated by the law in the course of any so called "disciplining" of children before a properly-directed factfinder (be it either a jury or a judge sitting alone) can find the perpetrator guilty.

Before the so called Anti Smacking Bill was passed, parents had a right to use reasonable force to discipline children. In those days there were jurors finding parents not guilty for smacking their kids with belts. That's an assault at a minimum, if not injuring with intent to injure. Since the passing of the bill, the physical disciplining of a child no longer attract a prima facie arguable "reasonable force in the course of discipline" defence and if the physical discipline, for example, constitutes assault (i.e. an intentional application of force on a person without their consent), unless the force used was inconsequential, the act can be the subject of a prosecution. If you can't see the difference, you're kidding yourself.

[A Corpse]

Who determines what level of force is inconsequential, and if it was, what's the point of using it? Surely the intent of *any* discipline, including non-physical such as timeout, is to have consequences such as teaching the child not to repeat their transgression?

[Reformed_Quint]

Originally Posted by cyc

Before the so called Anti Smacking Bill was passed, parents had a right to use reasonable force to discipline children. In those days there were jurors finding parents not guilty for smacking their kids with belts. .

Holy shit, my parents belted me and my brothers, fucking heaps O_o.

Man i'm an abused child, time to go out and murder some people.

[cyc]

I'm not merely talking about a few lashes with belts, you idiot. BTW, if you can't engage in an intelligent debate and resist bringing out all the typical "Hahah I got hit and I didn't murder someone" crap then, please, just go and sit in a corner with your mate Leadinjector.

[Genesis]

Originally Posted by _Incubus_

Its times like this I wish more people support the death penalty.

To be honest I'm surprised they weren't referred to the SPCA. Animals this dangerous should be destroyed.

[cyc]

Originally Posted by A Corpse

Who determines what level of force is inconsequential, and if it was, what's the point of using it? Surely the intent of *any* discipline, including non-physical such as timeout, is to have consequences such as teaching the child not to repeat their transgression?

Inconsequential refers to the physical significance of the force, not whether it was intended to achieve a particular outcome. Look, we've been through all this debate here and I have no desire to try and convert anybody who feels it's their God-given or "natural" right to smack/smash/bash or whatever their children. All that I was trying to point out is that the so called Anti Smacking Bill significantly lowered the law's tolerance of any use of force on children in the name of discipline.

And who else but the decision-maker to decide whether it's inconsequential? It's purely a question of fact.

[Wake]

I've been keeping up with the news while I've been overseas and a workmate passed by and saw that I was on a news site, and asked what New Zealand was like. I had just finished reading a story on Nia which ruined my morning, needless to say I was feeling pretty dark and just told him - nice beaches, nice bitches.
I suppose with me being short & sharp, considering, he took it a step further and asked what was in the headlines...
I lied, and just told him about an All Black being accused of cheating...

I'm so ashamed by the actions of these people, it affects all of us, and there has been very few stories since I was a lot younger, that grab my stomach like this one.

R.I.P

[Heyzoos]

One part of me understands that this abuse is a systemic failing of our society. Another part of me wants to neutralise the fuckers.

What is clear to me that I will be training my girl or boy to keep their head up when they are walking down the road.

[Heyzoos]

[quote=cyc]All that I was trying to point out is that the so called Anti Smacking Bill significantly lowered the law's tolerance of any use of force on children in the name of discipline.
QUOTE]

Word!

[Trigga*happY]

I think the point that is being made is that these types of atrocities are never committed in the name of 'discipline' and any rational human being can see that! Therefore the Bradford Bill is not even remotely applicable here, take that discussion elsewhere, it doesn't belong in here.

[Sp0nge]

as cyc has pointed out
the "anti smacking" changes have raised the chance of abusers being dealt to by law.
that surely is a step in the right direction.

but the reason I brought that bill to this thread
is that the public response to it shows that kiwis have a warped attitude towards family violence and kids.

Unless the general population believes that Family violence is NOT OK
kids will continue to get abused at alarming rates.

[Trigga*happY]

Sponge you know bloody well, that the whole debate surrounding that issue - is that a LARGE percentage of NZ believe that smacking for discipline is not violence. Let it go.

[Hazmat]

Originally Posted by Trigga*happY

Sponge you know bloody well, that the whole debate surrounding that issue - is that a LARGE percentage of NZ believe that smacking for discipline is not violence. Let it go.

Of course he knows.
But like family violence, it's easier to be a dick.

[crocos]

Originally Posted by cyc

Well, what you're saying is true but it merely shows that you've misunderstood the purpose behind the amendment.

Actually, no. I just wanted to see how easy it was to sidetrack the thread, and Sp0nge gave me the perfect opening

[RedeviL]

Originally Posted by A Corpse

People sicken me and things like this make me wonder if there's any hope for society anymore. It also makes me more determined than ever to shield my family from these kinds of monsters. Nobody will ever harm my family while I draw breath.

While this sickens me to the core and the amount of dismay I feel towards them is unspeakable - the response from everyone is the same. Disgust. Sadness. Dismay.

THIS restores my faith in people and society.

These few are black spots on a sensible whole.

It gladdens me that they are being served up as a very public, very open example of the stupidity which exists in the human race. The few put out on display for the many, their lesson in stupidity shown to all to be used and learnt from.

These types of cases should be something that you don't shy away from. No matter how hard it is to read, how angry it makes you or how emotional you become - you should read it to the end. Remember it, not for the adults and their acts - but for the child.

[Nuclear]

The fact that someone could do this to a child is unbelievable. Some people are so fucking terrible.
Similar story is big news here in the UK, not only because of the abuse by family members, but because of the doctor who failed to spot the childs broken back.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...1/baby-p-death

[Sp0nge]

Originally Posted by Trigga*happY

Sponge you know bloody well, that the whole debate surrounding that issue - is that a LARGE percentage of NZ believe that smacking for discipline is not violence.

of course i know that a large % of kiwis believe that it not violence.
thats why i said in my first post that its an uphill battle.

i dont know how Nia Glassie was first abused.
but my guess is that she was crying over something, and some dick decided to slap her around to teach her some discipline.
the violence then gradually escalates...
her story ended with death

but what about the thousands of kids who are at this very moment getting abused, with discipline as an excuse....
"give you a hiding...teach them a lesson"

a light smack can escalate to a heavy smack...a heavy smack can escalate to bruising...etc

you have to get the problem at its root
and one branch of that root is the attitude towards hitting kids.

we shouldnt tolerate it.

[Trigga*happY]

** not the time or thread for this shit **
Sponge, I disagree with you - if you want to get into that shit again, open another thread. Leave it out of here.

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Sp0nge

a light smack can escalate to a heavy smack...a heavy smack can escalate to bruising...etc

Does it always?

[Ab]

Originally Posted by funnel web

It's times like these that I give my daughter a hug and tell her I love her. Ok, I do that every day but more so today.

After reading this post yesterday, I dropped what I was doing and went outside and played with MHG. We played with trucks in the sandpit and chased each other around the back yard laughing our heads off until summoned inside for dinner.

[A Corpse]

Originally Posted by Ab

After reading this post yesterday, I dropped what I was doing and went outside and played with MHG. We played with trucks in the sandpit and chased each other around the back yard laughing our heads off until summoned inside for dinner.

Best way to spend time ever. I know I spend way less time on my PC than I used to and my daughter's not even talking or walking yet.

[Baal]

I don't think it really needs any opinions, it's just really sad.

p.s. fuck off with your smacking discussion, morons.

[Sp0nge]

yeah, lets not think of the causes and potential solutions

lets just feel sad for the little girl, and unrelenting hate for those who caused her death

we can always create another thread when this happens again.

[Trigga*happY]

Originally Posted by A Corpse

Best way to spend time ever. I know I spend way less time on my PC than I used to and my daughter's not even talking or walking yet.

Wait till she gets a bit older, going to the pools after touch rugby practice, going down the park to kick around a rugby ball, throwing around small bouncy rubber balls indoors and breaking photo frames (oops! )

Getting to be a kid all over again rocks!

[Trigga*happY]

Originally Posted by Sp0nge

yeah, lets not think of the causes and potential solutions

lets just feel sad for the little girl, and unrelenting hate for those who caused her death

we can always create another thread when this happens again.

Originally Posted by Baal

I don't think it really needs any opinions, it's just really sad.

p.s. fuck off with your smacking discussion, morons.

[ChaosWulf]

Originally Posted by Trigga*happY

Getting to be a kid all over again rocks!

Fully

[cyc]

Originally Posted by Baal

I don't think it really needs any opinions, it's just really sad.

p.s. fuck off with your smacking discussion, morons.

I am not one to go around defending Sponge but, christ, get the fuck over yourself. The whole world just wouldn't know that a kid being murdered is sad without everybody being able to focus on the outpourings of outrage in this thread!

[Baal]

Didn't you rage quit?

[Golden Teapot]

Originally Posted by Trigga*happY

is that a LARGE percentage of NZ believe that...

And, every single one of them is wrong.

If smacking is okay for correction, then surely it doesn't matter too much if it's used for the fun / sport of the parent at other times too? Since, apparently, no harm comes from beating a child.

[crocos]

Originally Posted by Baal

Didn't you rage quit?

You should know better than that Baal. No one who rage-quits this place ever really means it.

[Fx.]

jesus christ i hate people.

(except genesis baal and cronos)