Really Sensible Sentencing

[Ab]

I don't whether to be lolling or crying. Terrorist fist bump to Labour MP Russell Fairbrother's campaign in support of the idea that...

...only the worst of the worst criminals should be sent to jail.

The rest were victims of a competitive society focused on private gain at the expense of public good, and they should be supported in the community with taxpayer funds that would otherwise go into keeping them locked up.

Curse you, competitive society! Someone give me a hug! And a certificate of achievement in something!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4582250a11.html

[StN]

I think he wants to solve the prison crowding problem the same way they solved the hospital waiting list issue - just redraw the boundaries and entry criteria.

[CCS]

A certificate in something? Why should you do something in order to get a certificate of achievement? That sounds pretty competitive. You should get a certificate of achievement in nothing!

[H8^Machine]

but doing nothing, is still doing something right?

[Sp0nge]

i can see where they are coming from
but society is not yet ready for such compassionate thinking.

look at it this way:
if you have a family with a few kids, and one of the kids causes a lot more problems than the others, do you not try and help that kid out?

....perhaps society should simply be an extension of family...

[CCS]

I think it's characterised by it's lack of something.

Originally Posted by H8^Machine

but doing nothing, is still doing something right?

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Sp0nge

if you have a family with a few kids, and one of the kids causes a lot more problems than the others, do you not try and help that kid out?

Yes. However it's ideal to help that kid out before he gets to an age where his antisocial behaviour results in jail time.

[Lightspeed]

You have to credit the Sensible Sentencing Trust for being self-sustaining. By demanding prison sentences out of concern for victims' feelings, they help develop tougher criminals, who once released commit more crimes, producing more victims for the SST to fawn over.

[BadNova]

So they're proposing to give criminals money instead of jailtime. I guess it's the logical next step in Labour's grand plan for us all. This will DEFINITELY reduce the crime rate.

[Torka]

I can see a new approach to crime emerging in a few centuries when we've matured a bit as a race, but yeah...definitely not ready yet.

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Torka

I can see a new approach to crime emerging in a few centuries when we've matured a bit as a race

Such as ECT chips in the brain of repear offenders?

[JP]

I mean prison isn't really that effective of a tool at reducing crime rate. If your goal is to take people who have commited serious crimes out of society for whatever period of time, it is very effective. And that is societies current plan in dealing with criminals at the moment. It's not the worst, but certainly not as effective as it could be.

Reducing poverty in my opinion is the best way to reduce crime.

[[WanG] Wandarah]

What about eating them?

[crocos]

Originally Posted by [WanG] Wandarah

What about eating them?

Long pig? Nah - too stringy, and the drugs make the flesh taste too gamey. What you really want is a big fat American brat raised on a diet of McDs so that the fat melts while it's being slowly roasted - Nice & tender!

Damn it! I'm drooling now!

[Gerbs]

Originally Posted by crocos

What you really want is a big fat American brat raised on a diet of McDs so that the fat melts while it's being slowly roasted - Nice & tender!

Fuck yeah, gimme some o' dat!

[SID|DensitY]

I think he wants to solve the prison crowding problem

be easier just to reintroduce the death penalty and make it mandatory sentance for murder.

[Lightspeed]

Considering the relatively low murder rate in NZ, I think that will not help much. What would it reduce the prison population by? 40 a year?

[Spink]

According to Wikipedia the font of all accurate information the latest statistics on NZ's homicide rate is 1.29 per 100,000 inhabitants!

Although according to stats.govt.nz

Offence definitions and categorisations vary widely between police jurisdictions internationally. For example, in New Zealand 'homicide' includes murder, attempted murder, manslaughter, infanticide, abortion, and aiding suicide/pact. Within this, 'murder' includes conspiracy to murder, and incite/counsel/attempt to procure murder. This variation, plus several other limitations associated with international comparisons, means that any results must be interpreted with extreme caution.

So that figure is useless D:

[Spink]

Oh there we go

.			1996	1997	1998	1999	2000	2001	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006
Murder			63	89	64	61	66	62	77	65	60	73	63 
Attempted homicide	43	61	32	32	31	31	41	34	24	30	34

source: http://www.safe-nz.org.nz/statistics.htm

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Spink

According to Wikipedia the font of all accurate information the latest statistics on NZ's homicide rate is 1.29 per 100,000 inhabitants!

Yes, but as your stats thereafter illustrate, homicide is not necessarily illegal. Homicide -- killing a human -- is only in very rare cases murder.

[Spink]

Maybe they need a 3 strikes law, but instead of 3 strikes and you go to jail. 3 different sets of jail time and you get the death penalty.

Judging by the sensationalised text on that sensible sentencing site

1200 violent offenders are up for Parole in the next three years
over 900 will re-offend
83% of Male and 75% of Female prisoners are RE-OFFENDERS

[Lightspeed]

Perhaps true, but murder is the crime a person is least likely to commit again, sexual abuse against a child the second least likely. So it's not serious crime that needs to be looked at if you want to prevent re-offending.

[chris]

Violent crimes aren't "serious crime"?
What is?

I'd like to meet one of these people standing for "sensible sentencing" who has had loved ones or family members caught up in random acts of violence which have continued horrific/expensive effects on the health and quality of life for the victims and their loved ones, and let them explain to me what it is that motivates them to try and keep these guys out on the streets.
Because lets face it, what are the options? The mental health system? Here it is more of a joke than the prisons/legal system.

[JP]

Originally Posted by chris

Violent crimes aren't "serious crime"?
What is?

I'd like to meet one of these people standing for "sensible sentencing" who has had loved ones or family members caught up in random acts of violence which have continued horrific/expensive effects on the health and quality of life for the victims and their loved ones, and let them explain to me what it is that motivates them to try and keep these guys out on the streets.
Because lets face it, what are the options? The mental health system? Here it is more of a joke than the prisons/legal system.

Umm the people at sensible sentencing, are a lobby group for harsher penalties.

It still amazes me that people can't grasp the fact that increasing punishments is not a reliable way of reducing crime. It's been the method for thousands of years. Yet people are like, maybe if we just make it a bit harsher, it will solve things. Regardless of both history and statistics proving them wrong.

No. Stop being retarded. It just doesn't work that way, not reliably anyway.

The fact of the matter, is if you throw 100 people into a situation, x amount are going to commit a serious crime. If that situation is one involving poverty, the x is far higher than if it is not. More than race, or any other factor, poverty level has the highest correlation with crime rate.

Now you can talk about personal responsibility till the cows come home. Regardless of whether you're right or not. It's not going to reduce crime.

We'll probably always have poverty, just like we'll always have crime. But for any realistic large reduction in crime, a large reduction in poverty is necessary. Which would also lead to a reduction in a lot of other issues.

How you go about that should be the question. Not whether we should instigate the horrible three strikes system that has ruined so many lives in California. Yay, life in prison for shoplifting. That'l learn 'em.

Also, congrats to anyone who has said or thought, that crime is in some out of control upwards spiral. You're a retard, and totally susceptible to retarded arguments. I bet you enjoy listening to newstalk ZB.

Crime is almost universally on the decrease (mostly thanks to a rise in abortions apparently?), apart from an increase in young mostly Polynesian men doing all sorts of fucked up shit.

But i'll tell you what, increasing the punishment isn't going to stop that. At all. Infact, i'm not 100% what will. But it will involve targeting that community and somehow making them want to conform to the whole study - work - die thing. Or at least to not be stupid fucktards who bash innocent people. My guess is it will take a few generations to get it out of them.

[Spink]

what a racist

[chris]

Originally Posted by JP

Umm the people at sensible sentencing, are a lobby group for harsher penalties.

I was referring to the people in the article. Sorry to miss type, didn't mean to ruin your day.

As for the rest of your rant, I couldn't agree more. We must strive to ensure equality across society, equal access to education etc. That's the key as far as I can see, but like you said, that will take generations.

But if you live in South Auckland, what do they do in the interim?
Stay indoors? Try to calmly talk some sense into the guys who have already decided to live a life of violence and crime?

I once worked with a guy who got in a fight and the other guy he decided to start a fight with died as a result of the injuries he sustained in that fight.
The killer was in prison for 2 years, count 'em, T-W-O.
Anyone who thinks NZ's stance on violent crime is ok is a retard.

[JP]

Originally Posted by chris

I was referring to the people in the article. Sorry to miss type, didn't mean to ruin your day.

As for the rest of your rant, I couldn't agree more. We must strive to ensure equality across society, equal access to education etc. That's the key as far as I can see, but like you said, that will take generations.

But if you live in South Auckland, what do they do in the interim?
Stay indoors? Try to calmly talk some sense into the guys who have already decided to live a life of violence and crime?

I once worked with a guy who got in a fight and the other guy he decided to start a fight with died as a result of the injuries he sustained in that fight.
The killer was in prison for 2 years, count 'em, T-W-O.
Anyone who thinks NZ's stance on violent crime is ok is a retard.

I'm sure we're not getting the full story on that. Sounds more likely that two adult men (probably intoxicated) made a decision to have a fight. One of them died from this fight. That's not some cold blooded murder. That could happen to any man whose willing to punch someone. Two years seems fine for that. If the guy just beat the other guy to death out of no where, obviously it isn't. And I think that's kind of another important point people need to consider is that not everyone in prison is a hopeless nutcase who wants to bash everyone.

Anyone can end up in prison. Obviously some are more likely than other. But have you ever driven when you'd likely be over the limit? Well, if you hit someone and they died. Your ass is going to jail. A million examples like that of ordinary people going to jail who never would of thought they'd end up there. There's also people who are wrongfully jailed. Which is probably a lot more than your average person would think.

What do we do about these young men currently? Fucked if I know. More cops on patrol? More effort once they get released from prison to get them not to reoffend (halfway houses etc). But to me its all about targeting the teens and younger and doing whatever it takes to get them off their current ridiculous pattern of trying to be black ghetto thugs. I have no fucking idea how its going to be achieved though. Because this one can't simply be blamed on poverty.

Unlike their American hero's, many of these kids aren't growing up in a hopeless situation where the only way out is sports or drugs. A lot of these kids grow up with richer parents than I had. Yet they fall into these groups where school isn't a priority, drinking and fighting is.

Maybe offer the option of switching from school into a trade course that would cut time off an apprenticeship or something.

[chris]

Originally Posted by JP

I'm sure we're not getting the full story on that. Sounds more likely that two adult men (probably intoxicated) made a decision to have a fight. One of them died from this fight. That's not some cold blooded murder. That could happen to any man whose willing to punch someone. Two years seems fine for that. If the guy just beat the other guy to death out of no where, obviously it isn't. And I think that's kind of another important point people need to consider is that not everyone in prison is a hopeless nutcase who wants to bash everyone.

Actually he was a trained fighter, had been in prison before and is generally a total thug. Always starting scraps. Just this time he went overboard.
It's creeps like that who need to be kept away from the rest of the community.
What do you think should have been done with him?
And two years is not fine for ANY act of violence which takes a life.

Originally Posted by JP

Anyone can end up in prison. Obviously some are more likely than other. But have you ever driven when you'd likely be over the limit? Well, if you hit someone and they died. Your ass is going to jail. A million examples like that of ordinary people going to jail who never would of thought they'd end up there. There's also people who are wrongfully jailed. Which is probably a lot more than your average person would think.

I have found it pretty easy to stay out of prison my entire life so far.
So has my entire extended family, so has my wife, oh and so has her entire family too.
Here are some tips.
Don't hit people. It's easy, just walk away. Run if you have to.
Don't shoot people. Just don't.
Don't drive drunk. I find that easy since I don't drink.
Don't steal. I earn a good living; I don't feel the need to steal people’s hard earned things either.
Don't commit violent crimes. Why would you? Is there any real valid excuse to do so?

Anyway, I think you're on the right track I just don't understand where you're coming from with some of your points. My fault maybe?

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by chris

I have found it pretty easy to stay out of prison my entire life so far.
So has my entire extended family, so has my wife, oh and so has her entire family too.

Do you think there might be some correlation there?

[Biff]

Labour has also indicated that inmate day spas (IDS) will be built alongside prisons to pamper inmates further aiding in rehabilitation. "We just want them to know how sorry we are that they have been put into this situation and will do whatever possible to ensure they enjoy their stay"

[chris]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Do you think there might be some correlation there?

Of course there is.
What's your point there, Lightspeed?

[Sp0nge]

surely you get the point

if your entire extended family, your wife, and her extended family had been in and out of jail, or had drinking problems, or lived in poverty, or had mental health issues, etc etc

dont you think someone in that environment has different odds than you of staying out of trouble with the law?

[chris]

Originally Posted by Sp0nge

surely you get the point

if your entire extended family, your wife, and her extended family had been in and out of jail, or had drinking problems, or lived in poverty, or had mental health issues, etc etc

dont you think someone in that environment has different odds than you of staying out of trouble with the law?

Of course, but I had attempted to point out that what JP had said was not along those lines at all..

Originally Posted by JP

Anyone can end up in prison...... But have you ever driven when you'd likely be over the limit? ..... A million examples like that of ordinary people going to jail who never would of thought they'd end up there......

I think he was just getting carried away with trying to make his point and said silly things like "Oh yeah, just about any straight up person can wind up behind bars! All you have to do is..... [chris]be a thug??[/chris]"

A person who has been immersed in violence & crime and grows up to commit crimes and ends up in jail is a far cry from the picture JP seems to paint of the average citizen haplessly in the wrong place at the wrong time who ends up serving 25 to life.

Originally Posted by JP

..Anyone can end up in prison..

Lightspeed must have missed that. So I was trying to see why, out of all the things I said, he chose to pick that out and then state the obvious.

[JP]

I stand by my point. Anyone can end up in prison. You're fucking delusional if you think you're immune. Obviously the odds are you won't. But it will still happen to say 1 in 500 people in your position (arbitrary stat made up, but you can change it however you like will mean the same thing). If you think the only people in jail are lifelong crims you're dreaming.

People make mistakes and end up in jail. It's not some kind of stretch of anything chris.

Obviously they don't make up the majority of jail population. Though hopefully some day they will (when lifelong crims are no longer common).

Also biff's dayspa comment might as well read "hi, i'm a retard". Maybe it's just me. I don't mind chris disagreeing with me on some points, he's obviously thought about it. But tards who use dumbass cliche shit like that, yeah, insta-retard grade from me.

[Wally Simmonds]

No, you're quite correct, Biff is a retard

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by JP

I stand by my point. Anyone can end up in prison. You're fucking delusional if you think you're immune.

But the opposite is also true - anyone can stay out of prison by simply living within the law.

Under NZ Justice, making a bad decision in isolation is not enough to get a prison sentence. You only go to prison if you demonstrate a continual or premeditated disregard for the law.

I guess the point you are making is that you can't make generalisations about the people who end up in prison. The one thing they all have in common is that ultimately they are all responsible for their own actions and are living with the consequences of choices they have made.

While it is clear there are contributing factors in the form of familial dysfunction or economic stresses, it is important to recognise that free will is not an ideal, but something we all have, each and every moment of our lives.

[JP]

Oh of course. But (almost) anyone can avoid dying young of a heart attack if they get all the right check ups, eat healthily, exercise etc. People don't do everything exactly as they should. That doesn't excuse people for their actions however. It's just reality. Have you never ever done anything illegal? That dude who posted his insane crash, what if he hit and killed someone and the cops decided to charge him with manslaughter and a bunch of other shit.

As for free will. I completely agree it is peoples own responsibility to stay out of jail for the most part (the law can be pretty unjust sometimes, and in some cases is used to hold one group of people at the mercy of conservative groups, such as the several hundred thousand young black men rotting in american prisons for non violent crimes). It's not that hard to not commit a major crime. And they make a choice knowing the risk to commit the crime. They generally deserve what they get.

I think people often mistake what i'm saying for apologizing for criminals. I'm not. What i'm saying is, as I said earlier, you can argue about free will all day long, it won't solve this issue at all. Because you put 100 people in that situation, x amount are going to come criminals, very reliably. You can say, hey they should get a job and be a helpful part of society, it's true, but it's not going to make it happen. If it did, the world would be a lot nicer place than it is now. I mean, we have the capability to feed everyone on this planet, yet millions starve while food rots. People don't work quite the way they should.

You have to change the situation people are being born into. That's what should be being discussed. Yet almost all discussion I see is criminals aren't being punished enough. It's not even a two sided discussion, it's just people complaining about prison lengths not being long enough. I'm not saying that shouldn't be up for discussion. It should. Those mongrels that shot that indian shopkeep for no reason should just be put away for good in my opinion. They either have mental issues that make them a danger to others, and should be instituionalised, or they have chosen to murder another human being in cold blood. But at the same time, even that is a really complicated issues, and I feel the major proponents aren't actually well researched on the topic. And are acting based on emotions.

Anyways, i'm sure i've made some points someone will want to tear up so i'll leave it at that for the moment.

Sorry that my posts are a bit unclear to those reading.

[chubby]

^^ your posts are making complete sense.

[Draco T Bastard]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

But the opposite is also true - anyone can stay out of prison by simply living within the law.

How many people know the law? How many times have you seen some idiot on the news exclaiming that smoking marijuana is illegal?

The point is that most people stay out of prison by doing what they think is right not by "simply living within the law" because they don't actually know what the law is. Others push the limits of the law and say "well, it wasn't illegal so it must be right" even when they know that what they're doing is against the intent of the law (ie, the law was actually supposed to make what they were doing illegal). The latter is how we ended up with the EFA.

[sv]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Under NZ Justice, making a bad decision in isolation is not enough to get a prison sentence.

Involuntary manslaughter?