The God Delusion

[Simon]

There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.


Doesn't really leave much room for debate.

[[WanG] Wandarah]

lol sceeenctistz dont beliave in godz omg lol

talk about preaching to the fucking converted. what a waste of fucking time.

[samael]

Originally Posted by [WanG] Wandarah

lol sceeenctistz dont beliave in godz omg lol

talk about preaching to the fucking converted. what a waste of fucking time.

He did spell out fairly clearly who this book was aimed at, why do you say that he is wasting his time?

[armourking]

The Lords of Kobol are totally going to wail on this guy.

Seriously though, time to order from Amazon. Because Taupo bookstore suck.

[[WanG] Wandarah]

Originally Posted by samael

He did spell out fairly clearly who this book was aimed at, why do you say that he is wasting his time?

Hey, beats me. Sometimes when I'm holding an orange, someone walks up to me and tells me - 'Hey, thats an orange', I thank them and continue on my way, both of us enriched for the experience.

[?>Superman]

lol

[samael]

Originally Posted by [WanG] Wandarah

Hey, beats me. Sometimes when I'm holding an orange, someone walks up to me and tells me - 'Hey, thats an orange', I thank them and continue on my way, both of us enriched for the experience.

I don't think you are part of the target audience

[[WanG] Wandarah]

Originally Posted by samael

I don't think you are part of the target audience

Ze target market, it is a capitalist illusion.

[cEvin]

molemen lol

[Mabd]

Originally Posted by seanfish

Yes, but why is there a necessity to have *a* god in the first place? Once you've deconstructed religion what's left?

TBH, I don't know. I personally don't feel any need for one, but that's me. Who knows why others do. I have known some genuinely nice Christian people whom I would think would be genuinely nice non-Christian people. Why they believe in something I don't, why are they willing to (in my experience) be lambasted every Sunday morning and evening, why are they willing to keep giving 10% of their pay for dubious reasons for that faith ... *shrug*

Si, I have never seen any religion open to debate (not that I've studied every religion). After all, how open to debate is the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster Cult... !! (he said cult!!)

[Xanatos]

Originally Posted by Mabd

*snip*
After all, how open to debate is the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster Cult... !! (he said cult!!)

Once touched by His Noodly Appendage there is no room for debate.

[Draco T Bastard]

Originally Posted by Mabd

Personally, I wouldn't argue against God. Way I figure it, I don't know for sure what is beyond my life. However, I will argue until my dying day against religion because they are not the same thing at all.

Originally Posted by seanfish

Yes, but why is there a necessity to have *a* god in the first place? Once you've deconstructed religion what's left?

Life.

And he didn't say anything about needing a god although it's probably important to have him around to kick start the universe

[seanfish]

Originally Posted by Draco T Bastard

And he didn't say anything about needing a god although it's probably important to have him around to kick start the universe

Again, why? The universe isn't some great big motorcycle so it's a pretty poor analogy.

[Draco T Bastard]

Now you're being pendantic

This comes down to the First Cause argument. If God created the universe then he would be a fairly important dude to have around. Because if he wasn't then, ergo, no universe.

Why would God create the universe?
Dunno - You'll have to ask him. I just get along enjoying life because it happens to be worth it whether you believe in God or not.

[seanfish]

Originally Posted by Draco T Bastard

Now you're being pendantic

Always! Thorough logical argument stems from the questioning of assumptions. As we haven't agreed there *is* a cause for the universe other than itself your suggesting there needs to be one is the assumption I have do question.

Originally Posted by Draco T Bastard

You want answers?

I think I'm entitled to them.

Originally Posted by Draco T Bastard

You want answers?!

I want the truth.

Originally Posted by Draco T Bastard

You can't handle the truth!

Ladies and gentlemen, the defense rests.

[sv]

All god wants of man is a peaceful heart.

- Meister Eckhart

[StN]

I want to know if God could push two lego blocks together so hard that even he couldn't pull them apart. Because if so, I think he's be 'round my boy's bedroom.

[Lightspeed]

You want to know if God can <nonsense>? I don't get it.

[EvilLumpy]

wow some insightful things going on here and no ones getting their heads knocked in either!

I'm impressed!

But as I've said before, I'm going to someone elses hell no matter what I do, so I'm going to do what I think is right in the meantime.

It's funny how you get atheists who do exactly what they profess they despise most of their rabid counterparts

lolladins

[ilk]

Originally Posted by EvilLumpy

wow some insightful things going on here and no ones getting their heads knocked in either!

I'm impressed!

But as I've said before, I'm going to someone elses hell no matter what I do, so I'm going to do what I think is right in the meantime.

It's funny how you get atheists who do exactly what they profess they despise most of their rabid counterparts

lolladins

Yeah it's funny how you get atheists who <assertion without evidence>. Those motherfuckers.

It's also funny how you get people in <insert group here> who don't follow <insert group here>'s behaviour to the letter, or are fallible in some way. My those <insert group here> guys are real assholes huh?

Cockbite.

[Genesis]

I'm far from religious, but I find it hard to fathom why people get so raged up about this shit.

Yeah I know, I know - being the anti-Christ is the new cool but it just doesn't sit tight with me.

[Endymion]

Originally Posted by Genesis

I'm far from religious, but I find it hard to fathom why people get so raged up about this shit.

Well, you have a few choices here...
a) ignore the problems in the world outside of your circle of influence and just get on with your life and be happy.

b) accept God into your life and secure yourself a spot in heaven.

c) realise that for as long as we've been writing things down (and most likely before then), a select few have used religion as a tool to get everyone else to do what is best for them (the select few). Usually by saying things like 'If you do <this>, you will go to hell'.

You seem to have chosen a).

[chubby]

ooh ooh... C?

[seanfish]

Originally Posted by Endymion

b) accept God into your life and secure yourself a spot in heaven.

What a load of horse shit.

[PsyK]

It was all a trick, he just wanted to cunt punch me :'(

[seanfish]

Originally Posted by PsyK

It was all a trick, God just wanted to cunt punch me :'(

[Genesis]

I've chosen the less extreme and a tad less biased choice not to generalize every Christian into some evil ball of destruction with the sole purpose to convert every person through the power of mother-fucken Jesus Christ.

I find it ironic that people are all FUCKEN DESTROY RELIGION BURN THESE FUCKS BECAUSE THATS WHAT THEY WOULD DO TO US FUCKEN FUCK SHIT RAGE FUCKEN JESUS FUCKKKKK, quick before they convert us! /tinfoil hat

It’s a pointless topic, a never ending cycle of hypocrisy and irony that never ends, from both sides.

[samael]

Originally Posted by Genesis

I've chosen the less extreme and a tad less biased choice not to generalize every Christian into some evil ball of destruction with the sole purpose to convert every person through the power of mother-fucken Jesus Christ.

I find it ironic that people are all FUCKEN DESTROY RELIGION BURN THESE FUCKS BECAUSE THATS WHAT THEY WOULD DO TO US FUCKEN FUCK SHIT RAGE FUCKEN JESUS FUCKKKKK, quick before they convert us! /tinfoil hat

It’s a pointless topic, a never ending cycle of hypocrisy and irony that never ends, from both sides.

I totally agree, those guys are as fucked as each other. Thats what so good about Dawkins I think, merely pointing out the ridiculousness in a rational accessible way hoping that it can help some people either change, or strengthen their own ideas.

The last thing we need is some retards trying to ban religion, it would never work. Imagine MMP with the Christian Heritage vs Militant Athiests ^_^

[Yardy]

despite being atheist, after watching the dawkins "root of all evil" doco i really wished i did believe in a god and an afterlife.

listening to him crapping on and on about how mankind should spend their lives in complete awe of their own existence and their evolution from amoeba was, frankly, depressing. this may give him a giant hardon, but for the majority of people, including myself, it doesn't cut the mustard. yes, i understand it, yes, it is quite amazing, no, it is not enough to form the basis of a meaningful existence.

i'd much rather live a life blindly believing in god, heaven and a higher purpose, and apparently the majority of the world's population do too.

[Draco T Bastard]

Can't say that I was all that impressed with Dawkins either. He didn't reallt say anything and he was quite emotional about having other views thrown in his face - esp. the US dude in the first part.

And of course, it's possible to believe in God without all the blind faith that religions teach.

[Whiplash]

... how?

[Pimp-X]

This thread is pointless and gay.

[Yardy]

Originally Posted by Whiplash

... how?

google "pascal's wager"

[Mabd]

Originally Posted by Pimp-X

This thread is pointless and gay.

I disagree to it being pointless; gay, maybe.

Reasonable discourse is never pointless, it may not change people's minds but it does illustrate how other people think. I find faith to be an interesting topic and while I will disagree, aggressively sometimes, with those who profess faith blindly I enjoy talking to those who make a rational decision to believe (yes, I do see the irony in that statement).

The only way this would be a pointless topic is if your sole interest is to CONVERT others to your way of thinking. If it isn't, then it's an interesting thread.

[Whiplash]

Yardy - That still didn't answer the question.
Pascals wager goes against reason on the basis that you have nothing to lose if you have faith.

[samael]

Originally Posted by Draco T Bastard

Can't say that I was all that impressed with Dawkins either. He didn't reallt say anything and he was quite emotional about having other views thrown in his face - esp. the US dude in the first part.

Well that US guy was pretty aggresive toward Dawkins, and started spouting a circular argument that made little sense at all in a tirade that, frankly, was quite intimidating, and not really realted to Dawkins question at all. All Dawkins did was ask him a hard question - just seeing the US guys response would make you think Dawkins had raped his baby daughter in the arse. Plus he looked like a psycho.

Originally Posted by Draco T Bastard

And of course, it's possible to believe in God without all the blind faith that religions teach.

god demands blind faith, there is no other way to believe in god. Unless, of course, its some wacky personnal god whose existance you can prove. My god is Sony, the god of telly, see, its over there!

[Pimp-X]

Originally Posted by Mabd

The only way this would be a pointless topic is if your sole interest is to CONVERT others to your way of thinking. If it isn't, then it's an interesting thread.

I beg to differ.

In my opinion, offering point and counterpoint on a subject in which there is not, and cannot be any empirical evidence in your lifetime is pointless.

It always boils away to a selection of overused and unentertaining anecdotes, and when those are over and done results in the usual "Well I'm right because I say I am" or "You could never understand because... <insert self assuring comment>".

The tooth fairy really did leave 50 cents under my pillow, and it really was santa that drank the DB Draught and ate the cake we left on the hearth.

Am I wrong? Probably no more wrong than anyone else when it comes to this subject.

Key words of this post: In, My, Opinion.

[samael]

Originally Posted by Pimp-X

I beg to differ.

In my opinion, offering point and counterpoint on a subject in which there is not, and cannot be any empirical evidence in your lifetime is pointless.

It always boils away to a selection of overused and unentertaining anecdotes, and when those are over and done results in the usual "Well I'm right because I say I am" or "You could never understand because... <insert self assuring comment>".

The tooth fairy really did leave 50 cents under my pillow, and it really was santa that drank the DB Draught and ate the cake we left on the hearth.

Am I wrong? Probably no more wrong than anyone else when it comes to this subject.

Key words of this post: In, My, Opinion.

Well sure, the general theme of a discussion like this is a "god is real" vs "god isnt real". But Its the details that matter.
Arguments such as "nature is to complicated to have come into existance by chance" are discussable and considered, and actual counterpoints can be made, explanations that are simpler and provable can be offered.
You can believe in the tooth fairy all you want, the alternative is that your parents faked it. Proof lies in the tounges of our parents, who may admit the deceit once asked.

The reason this is important, is that religious leaders will often make claims such as "look at the eye, too complicated" to enable people to believe, and members of these religions will often parrot this specious reasoning. I have had the whole "look at our world, too complicated for chance" argument presented too me by street nuts.
Hell, even people who don't consider themselves part of any official church, people who have personnal religion, will use this reasoning. This reasoning enables blind faith in some perverse twisted backwards way - "I have blind faith, and here are the reasons" - contradiction?

[Mabd]

Originally Posted by samael

god demands blind faith, there is no other way to believe in god.

According to... whom?

It is the interpretation given by most denominations - Christian or otherwise, for sure. What is kinda odd, from my own experience, is listening to (in this instance) Apolstolic pastors exhorting the congregation to have a close and personal relationship with God, yet within the limitation of Church doctrines.

Can, should?, the Church put restrictions on Faith? Doesn't the Faith in God go beyond the limitations of denomination? If you believe in God as a Catholic for example, have sex with a condom outside of marriage are you still Catholic (before you confess your "sin" - which I personally find ludicrous). Surely, technically, you are not a Catholic until you partake in the rites that reinstate you to grace (ready for you to do it all again next week). Does that make your belief in God any less?

If you are willing to question the Church surely that makes your Faith *not* blind since questioning introduces an element of rationality. What it will do is get you excommunicated. But then, you still have your faith in God, do you not? So back to the original statement - only Church doctrine and interpretation demands blind faith but Faith in an amporphous deity can still be had independent of doctrine without having to be the TeleGod in the corner of the room.

[samael]

Originally Posted by Mabd

According to... whom?

It is the interpretation given by most denominations - Christian or otherwise, for sure. What is kinda odd, from my own experience, is listening to (in this instance) Apolstolic pastors exhorting the congregation to have a close and personal relationship with God, yet within the limitation of Church doctrines.

Can, should?, the Church put restrictions on Faith? Doesn't the Faith in God go beyond the limitations of denomination? If you believe in God as a Catholic for example, have sex with a condom outside of marriage are you still Catholic (before you confess your "sin" - which I personally find ludicrous). Surely, technically, you are not a Catholic until you partake in the rites that reinstate you to grace (ready for you to do it all again next week). Does that make your belief in God any less?

If you are willing to question the Church surely that makes your Faith *not* blind since questioning introduces an element of rationality. What it will do is get you excommunicated. But then, you still have your faith in God, do you not? So back to the original statement - only Church doctrine and interpretation demands blind faith but Faith in an amporphous deity can still be had independent of doctrine without having to be the TeleGod in the corner of the room.

Oh I agree, faith can be had without doctrine, and without an organisation backing it. But faith in the unknowable is blind, no matter who agrees with you.

I have "faith" that my car will start tomorrow, its has every other time, and hasn't been making funny noises lately.
Others have have faith in god, because they think it would be nice if he existed. Or, because there is no evidence that he doesn't exist (which isnt really evidence). Or, because they have faith - they have faith because they have always had faith. Or, because they had a dream in which god spoke to them, or had some other religious experiance. The point is that there is no actual evidence here.

Maybe we have differing views on what constitutes blind faith, as opposed to merely believing