No relly... who are you going to vote for?

[Farmer Joe]

Originally posted by Evoke
On September 11 2000, 15 year old Angie Webster died waiting for a $5,000 operation. This Sunday (September 11) Angie's mother, Margaret Webster, will release a balloon from Angie's graveside and another 1152 balloons to remember all those who died on Labour's public waiting lists last year (2004).

1152 balloons will simultaneously be released in Christchurch, Wellington and Auckland.

The number of people who died while on a public hospital waiting list increased by 40% from the year 2002 to 2004. Labour's Minister of Health, Annette King, has been unable to explain why this dramatic increase has occurred. In 2004 1,152 people died while on a waiting list in the public system.

Yeah and if National get it it'll be even more!

[Mabd]

It is a long time practice of the Medical Council to restrict the number of doctors registered in New Zealand. This policy has kept doctor’s salaries high but is an obstacle to providing health care to the many thousands of people waiting on hospital lists.

Between 1992 and 1995 hundreds of professionally qualified immigrants came to New Zealand with the promise of jobs. When they arrived they faced many obstacles. Among the immigrants were doctors who discovered the New Zealand Medical Council would not recognise their qualifications. These doctors were told that if they wished to work in New Zealand they would have to pass US medical exams at a cost of thousands of dollars. Even then they were not guaranteed New Zealand registration. The Medical Council says it cannot afford to run an accreditation system itself, although its financial statement for the year ending 31 March 1999 showed an income surplus of nearly $2.5 million.

Not only are foreign trained doctors being stopped from practising but also New Zealand trained. Doctors who are overseas for more than three years now lose their registration. The journal Medical Council News of 25 December 1999 reports the Council has just removed from the register the names of 1,800 doctors who have been overseas for more than three years. They are required to do so under law changes introduced in 1995.

The reforms of the past 15 years set about privatisation of health services and some doctors have become millionaires. People wait for years to get operations through the public health system, but if they can afford private medical care they get prompt treatment. The New Right policies of the previous governments were directly to blame, but the Medical Council has played a role with its support for restricting doctor numbers. That may keep many doctors on high salaries but does little to promote public health.

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/wpnz/...eigndoctor.htm

Go the Worker's Party of NZ.

[xor]

Originally posted by Evoke
On September 11 2000, 15 year old Angie Webster died waiting for a $5,000 operation. This Sunday (September 11) Angie's mother, Margaret Webster, will release a balloon from Angie's graveside and another 1152 balloons to remember all those who died on Labour's public waiting lists last year (2004).

1152 balloons will simultaneously be released in Christchurch, Wellington and Auckland.

The number of people who died while on a public hospital waiting list increased by 40% from the year 2002 to 2004. Labour's Minister of Health, Annette King, has been unable to explain why this dramatic increase has occurred. In 2004 1,152 people died while on a waiting list in the public system.

Evoke, Do you have a point to this? Are you implying that under a National government all these people would be looked after?

Do you remember when Jenny Shipley took over as PM and what she did to the health system? She basically put people into a lottery to get their operations, real smooth~

What about John Banks who was head of police during the 90's for the national government and how he got rid of 500 police clerks and admin staff causing massive backlogs in court cases and dragging front line officers back behind a desk preventing them from doing their real job?

[xor]

Can someone please answer me these Questions:

Why would National want to give tax cuts to everyone? and doesn't the NZ government (no matter which party) need as much money as it can get for things like health/education/roading/police/debt etc?

FANKS

[Mabd]

Originally posted by xor
Can someone please answer me these Questions:

Why would National want to give tax cuts to everyone? and doesn't the NZ government (no matter which party) need as much money as it can get for things like health/education/roading/police/debt etc?

FANKS

I'm biased but I'll answer.

Vote buying. Yes.

[Evoke]

Originally posted by yem
Evoke - link?

http://www.act.org.nz/action/remembrance.aspx

[Evoke]

Originally posted by xor
Evoke, Do you have a point to this?

no. I think balloons are pretty.

[yem]

Oh I thought it may have been something credible. No references, so I'll just assume they made it up.

[Russian]

Personally I can't wait for all the shit that Brash is going to get in tonight's leaders debate. You know because of his latest flip flop.

[Helious]

Oh mate.

Don Brash is _fucked_

Honestly. What a stupid cunt.

[Evoke]

Originally posted by yem
Oh I thought it may have been something credible. No references, so I'll just assume they made it up.

why don't you wait till sunday and see if they made it up.

[Helious]

Bottom line.

He's(Don) a fucking liar.

He will not get in, based on what has happened today alone. It doesn't even matter what else he's fucked up throughout the campaign.

This was the straw that broke the camel's back.

[yem]

Evoke - I mean there's no reference to where the figures came from or whether it had ever been put to Annette King. There have been several in depth discussions of health policy - see the other thread for linkage. I don't recall this "40% increase in two years" stat ever being raised. If you have some more info, I'd really like to see it.

[Koldzy]

Originally posted by Russian
Personally I can't wait for all the shit that Brash is going to get in tonight's leaders debate. You know because of his latest flip flop.

it's a minor party debate ain't it?

[Ben Dover]

Originally posted by Mabd
5. Require all Treaty of Waitangi claims to be lodged by the end of 2006 and settled by the end of 2010.

HAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAh. Dream on. This will NOT produce harmony and accord between races.

There is no such thing as a 'maori race'. I know it is an often used stereotype in the press, but it is totally constructed and stupid. Of couse this will not prevent Helen's gang from continuing to use the silly stereotype of a 'maori race', after all this creates a whole welfare industry that only they are 'competent' (realize I use this term loosely) to administer.

Originally posted by Mabd
It will drive a fucking GIANT stake between them.

See what happens when you let people arbitrarily construct stereotypes of races just because it suits their ideology. Suddenly you have created something you can drive stakes between, even giant ones. What crap.

Mainstream scientists broadly accept the fact of only 3 races in the whole fucking world: African, Asian, European (Chimpanzee are not part of our species). Further it is genetically proven and broadly accepted that Polynesians (including maori) are related to the peoples of south-east Asia.

Hence if you really wanna talk races, we are talking Asian vs. European race. Makes no sence, does it?

Originally posted by Mabd
If this were to happen I could see Maori Soverignty making a very concerted push for self-governance. National are fucking blind if they think this will "work". I wonder if there'll be any protests which could lead to violent responses...

From insisting on being special New Zealanders to self-governance that's quite a leap. I would tend to recommend a crawl-walk-run strategy. But seriously, I can only see a few anyway rich bastards having maori souvereignity on their agenda. Mainstream maori can only lose out in the process.

Originally posted by Mabd
There's that word again... "wasteful". Wonder what it is.

This.

Originally posted by Mabd
10. Remove all references to the "Principles of the Treaty" from acts of parliament by April 1, 2008 and abolish Maori seats before the next election.

Guaranteed a vote winner.

Yeah, you are right, and this explains why.

[Winter*]

Originally posted by Helious-
Bottom line.

He's(Don) a fucking liar.

He will not get in, based on what has happened today alone. It doesn't even matter what else he's fucked up throughout the campaign.

This was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I was at uni all day and now the news is over! What did he do?

[Radian8]

I cannot believe that Susan Woods was the one that finally caused Don to break. His voice was cracking, he couldnt smile properly and got bitch slaped for 10 minutes. I think this is going to be a severe blow for National and hopefully the end of Dr Brash.
If anyone captured this, can you please post it.

[xor]

Originally posted by Evoke
no. I think balloons are pretty.

Yafuckinghoo you make me larff

[SickBo@Work]

Originally posted by Helious-
Bottom line.

He's(Don) a fucking liar.

He will not get in, based on what has happened today alone. It doesn't even matter what else he's fucked up throughout the campaign.

This was the straw that broke the camel's back.

What actually happened, having missed the 'debate' im curious.

Given that Helen has also blatantly lied what was said?

Originally posted by Mabd


6. Introduce and pass legislation to abolish parole for all violent and repeat offenders by July 1, 2006.

... I suppose the best way to break them up would be to incarcerate them for a long time.

[

I'm guessing this is in your bad things National wants to do list, but im unsure as to why?

[Nightcrawler]

I hope someone is capping the debate and will throw it up on a local source I'm at work with no TV and stuff

[The Edge]

It's interesting, I can tell you that much.

[Mabd]

Originally posted by Ben Dover
There is no such thing as a 'maori race'. I know it is an often used stereotype in the press, but it is totally constructed and stupid. [*snip for brevity*] Hence if you really wanna talk races, we are talking Asian vs. European race. Makes no sence, does it?

If you are going to be purposefully obtuse and simplistic then there is only one race, and everyone belongs to it. Defining by homogenic compatability is a construct of anthropologists and humanists to better define biological branches of the same race. And none of this will abrogate the truth of the matter that YOU don't define what a person is, their community does. You saying there's no such thing as race is, frankly, bullshit. My statement had nothing to do with the existence of the "race", but the fact that destroying the framework of generations in a year is NOT going to engender any sort of inclusive society.

Originally posted by Ben Dover
From insisting on being special New Zealanders to self-governance that's quite a leap. I would tend to recommend a crawl-walk-run strategy. But seriously, I can only see a few anyway rich bastards having maori souvereignity on their agenda. Mainstream maori can only lose out in the process.

Where the hell have you been for the last 20 years? Tino Rangatiratanga is alive and kicking in NZ and the more you make Maori believe they are 2nd class citizens then people like Mike Smith, Ken Mair and co. will agitate again. There is no doubt in this country that there is a disaffected section of society and, right or wrong, policies like National's will feed it. Remember when National had the "Fiscal Envelope" in the early 90's? $1bn was to be the fixed cap limit? Remember the Motoua Gardens and then successive occupations because of it?

Originally posted by Ben Dover
This.

Pathetic.

Originally posted by Ben Dover
Yeah, you are right, and this explains why.

A nice article with some good points, but it is flawed. It's not whether the Treaty is holding this country back, it is how to finalise to the satisfaction of all sides. Saying "harden up" is not going to do it. Saying you've got 15 months to write up your claims in a process that takes YEARS is not going to do it. It's got nothing to do with namby-pamby, liberal, PC bullshit. It's got everything to do with social stability, and if that means nothing to you... well, we'll see if anything happens if National win.

[Mabd]

Originally posted by SickBo@Work
I'm guessing this is in your bad things National wants to do list, but im unsure as to why?

Not really, it was just a nice litte segue into putting maori behind bars for protesting. Tongue-in-cheek.

Personally, I think the justice system is a little weak for some crimes.

[scratta]

Also didn't see this thing that Brash is supposed to have fucked up. What happened?????

[ipee]

haha. Winston cracked me up tonight.

" that's rich coming from you Helen with Motorcade, etc." after Helen just attacked Brash on the exclusive bretheren affair and then going on to say

" but why did Dr Brash go see people who don't vote?"

[TnT]

Originally posted by ipee
" but why did Dr Brash go see people who don't vote?"

Line of the debate.

I don't trust Winston, but the man is a consumate politician.

[yem]

Originally posted by scratta
Also didn't see this thing that Brash is supposed to have fucked up. What happened?????

Presumably his denials that he knew who had distributed the anonymous advertising smearing the Greens and Labour, then admitting today that actually he did know and even met with them on at least one occasion. It turns out that the Exclusive Brethren Church/Cult have spent around $500,000 on the campaign and intend to distribute more before the election as well as putting up National party signs and so forth.

Or you know, it could have been one of his numerous other fuckups

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Nightcrawler
I hope someone is capping the debate and will throw it up on a local source I'm at work with no TV and stuff

www.tvnz.co.nz has it. it's all split up into a bunch of streams.

edit, sorry that's the face 2 face interviews :/

[Nightcrawler]

haha bugger ><

[MadMax]

they have the debate from 22nd august there though.

[Macca@Work]

Originally posted by TnT
Line of the debate.

I don't trust Winston, because the man is a consumate politician.

fixed!

[Hannibal]

I think the debates are pretty useless. I thought Kerry ripped Bush a new one in all 3 presidential debates, yet Bush still got it. It all depends on which party has the best marketing and spin to feed the sheep. Since Labour is of the school of 'Karl Rove' they might just make it back in like Bush did..

[yem]

Karl Rove? I guess you didn't hear Jerry Brownlee on RNZ this morning. It was IMHO the most completely fucking awesome interview I've heard this year at least. Jerry went apeshit and started slagging off liberal media, Radio NZ in particular and raised Sean Plunket's suspension as evidence. Linda Clark got angry and totally bitchslapped him. It was beautiful *sniff*

And I fucking didn't record it

Don Brash getting owned by a newbie temp interviewer earlier in the morning was nice too

<brash> I'm meeellllting! Meeelllllltting! Arrrrrrrrrrggggh!

/gutted

[Jonas Undrawing]

I heard it...brilliant radio. Top job Linda. Jerry didn't get that it's Linda's job to scrutinize EVERYONE.

Jerry brings up Sean plunkett during his damn liberals rant... saying Labour / greens arranged to have him removed.

Linda says it's none of his business and they have no reason to talk about Sean, but for his information, Sean shouted at a news manager behind the scenes.

Jerry says: Sean isn't the issue here.

Linda says: You brought Sean into this...

Jerry says: oh yeah? well you're so keen to take him out of this so let's stop talking about him now...

HILARIOUS!

And according to Jerry, Helen dodges questions, and Don answers them until he's blue in the face... after he's blue in the face he just walks away when asked questions.


I hope Jerry stayed listening because they had someone from the liberal camp on straight after him (didn't catch the name), he first off commented on what a load of drivel Jerry spewed, and Linda was a pro, quickly switching to point out the good points Jerry had. Go Linda, holding EVERYONE to task.

[Cyberbob]

Originally posted by Helious-

This was the straw that broke the camel's back.

How can straw break a camels back?
They're super strong.
He'd have to be carrying so much already for straw to break his back.

Oh.
I see wha you've done there.
Very clever.

[Helious]

I don't get it

[chiquelet]

Originally posted by Mabd
A nice article with some good points, but it is flawed. It's not whether the Treaty is holding this country back, it is how to finalise to the satisfaction of all sides. Saying "harden up" is not going to do it. Saying you've got 15 months to write up your claims in a process that takes YEARS is not going to do it. It's got nothing to do with namby-pamby, liberal, PC bullshit. It's got everything to do with social stability, and if that means nothing to you... well, we'll see if anything happens if National win.

Are you a history grad, Mabd? You make an intelligent point about Waitangi claims and that's nice to see. Not many people have knowledge about the Waitangi Tribunal/Setllement Office/claims process.

I personally think it's worrying that both major parties want to scrap the Waitangi Tribunal (I think). Sure, historical claims need to be settled by some point, but you scrap the Tribunal and who's going to provide a check on the government in the future?

[Jonas Undrawing]

Mabd knows everything. Ask him something about ancient Greece and he'll tell you the kind of twine and knots they used to tie their shoes!

[TnT]

How many fingers am I holding up? Does he know that? Huh? HUH? DOES HE!?!

[TU[NZ]]

alright Mabd, this is a tricky one hehehe

say my name!?