Pre-election 2014 thread

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

National's spin machine is pretty slick, no doubt.

By "is slick" I presume you mean "can do the thing that is their job".

[Lightspeed]

If scamming is part of their job, sure.

[Ab]

You may not have been following closely, but Cunliffe's latest disaster actually has very little do with a letter.

[Lightspeed]

I've only managed to catch noise and bluster so far. What's the core issue do you think?

[Ab]

Labour has been, for whatever reason, running a pre-election campaign based on IMMIGRATION IS BAD MMMMKAY AND ASIANS ARE BAD MMMMKAY BECAUSE HOUSE PRICES in order to try and rescue its catastrophic poll numbers in Auckland. As one element of this strategy Labour has been attacking National for a perception that it is too close to Chinese businessmen and that Chinese businesses get a nudge nudge wink wink no pressure we're not saying do anything in particular but this Chinese outfit wants to invest money and is worth millions of export dollars so just keep on top of this application eh nudge nudge wink wink level of attention that others do not. Thanks to Maurice Williamson the Chinese millionaire Donghua Liu in particular has been the subject of very pointed criticism directed by Labour at National, and Liu has been painted as a rich shady donor who gets special treatment from National because he has donated money, and as all decent white folks know parties that play footsie with Chinese millionaires are evil because yellow peril yellow peril.

Now a grownup political party would have a team of researchers, or I dunno one guy who can use grep, and a grownup political party would ask that team/guy "have we ever come within sniffing distance of this Donghua Liu? because we really want to hammer National on its connection to Chinese businesses in general and Liu in particular and we'll look like fucking muppets if it then turns out that Liu is even closer to us than he is to National. Not only that but if we go out there all guns blazing painting Donghua Liu as some sort of dodgy crim then he may take offence and may feel inclined to drop us in the shit if he has the means, which of course he would only be able to do if we'd actually come in contact with him, ever. So it's vitally important that we establish if we ever have or not. "

But that's what would happen if Labour were a grownup political party, whereas we live in the real world. So Labour commenced hammering National and painting Liu as a shady crim, and then Cunliffe got asked if he'd ever come in contact with Liu NO NO CERTAINLY NOT had he ever advocated for Liu or his business with any sort of nudge nudge wink wink letter NO NO CERTAINLY NOT has Labour ever taken money from or enjoyed the hospitality of Mr Liu or his businesses NO NO CERTAINLY NOT BECAUSE YELLOW PERIL YELLOW PERIL.

... oh whoops, the Herald is claiming it has proof of at least $15,000 dollars in donations from Liu to Labour

... oh whoops, here's a nudge nudge wink wink letter from Labour MP Chris Carter to Immigration about Liu and his businesses

... oh whoops, here's a nudge nudge wink wink letter from David Cunliffe himself to Immigration about Liu and his businesses

... oh whoops, here's a picture of Labour Cabinet Minister Rick Barker at a Labour Party fundraising event with the Liu family

... oh whoops, here's documentation showing that Rick Barker, while part of a Labour Government, went to China, visited Liu, and went on a luxury river cruise hosted by Liu's company


etc etc.

The letter is a minor bit of a story of muppetry - it's not the story itself.

[BoyWonder]

I know you won't bother, but Lightspeed you should read this ^ and actually ask yourself If you really think that Labour should be in charge of New Zealand.

[Lightspeed]

Hey BoyWonder, whoever you are, go fuck yourself.

[Lightspeed]

Ab, question: does a grown up political party have cabinet members who haven't figured out it's unacceptable to use their position of authority to influence police investigations (note the plural, it wasn't just Lui who was a beneficiary of this behaviour.)

You have a lot of hyperbole about Labour, but Williamson didn't resign because he was embarrassed. He did something wrong that borders on corruption. That's fact, not hyperbole.

To choose between corruption and clumsy electioneering... you already know my choice.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Ab, question: does a grown up political party have cabinet members who haven't figured out it's unacceptable to use their position of authority to influence police investigations

No, it doesn't. A grownup party would fire a cabinet minister who did that.

[BoyWonder]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Hey BoyWonder, whoever you are, go fuck yourself.

Hey Lightspeed I don't care that you don't know me, at least I'm not constantly striving to make a name for myself as a moron.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

To choose between corruption and clumsy electioneering... you already know my choice.

Reminded me of something Gorden Campbell said this week: "The gaffes he has made have not been major. We are not talking about economic disasters on the scale of National’s asset sales programme, which will penalize New Zealanders for decades to come."

[Ab]

And what Gordon Campbell said immediately after that sentence was:

Cunliffe, however, has comprehensively failed to offer a credible alternative to the dismal Key administration. The succession of gaffes may have been trivial. Yet they were evidence of a team that seems unable to anticipate the attack lines from National, and which seems either panicked by them, or retreats instantly into a defensive crouch to limit the damage. Labour has shown no ability at confidently stating a policy, rebutting the predictable criticism and moving an argument forwards – not at least, without sounding condescending as it does so. Labour may have had a vision, but few New Zealanders have wanted to pursue it in the company of David Cunliffe. The polls indicate that Labour is headed for a catastrophe of the sort that befell National in 2002.

There is no visible alternative. Grant Robertson is cut from the same hyper-calculating, micro-positioning cloth. What really ails Labour is that it is a centre left party whose parliamentary caucus is terrified – literally terrified – of its own left wing shadow.

[fixed_truth]

Yep, clumsy electioneering.

Meanwhile there are not enough jobs, wages are too low and beneficiaries are bashed.

[Ab]

Labour not knowing what it even stands for is at a level far more fundamental than just clumsy electioneering.

[adonis]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Reminded me of something Gorden Campbell said this week: "The gaffes he has made have not been major. We are not talking about economic disasters on the scale of National’s asset sales programme, which will penalize New Zealanders for decades to come."

Pretty much, it seems a lot of people just love getting their knickers in a twist over nothing.

[plaz0r]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Williamson didn't resign because he was embarrassed. He did something wrong that borders on corruption. That's fact, not hyperbole.

Come on Lightspeed, Maurice Williamson was guilty only of trying to help his constituents

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by BoyWonder

Hey Lightspeed I don't care that you don't know me, at least I'm not constantly striving to make a name for myself as a moron.

At least I'm not a moron who makes claims to know someone they do not.

Thanks for letting me in on the fantasy you have cooked up about me. Why you would want to concoct one is lost on me though.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

No, it doesn't. A grownup party would fire a cabinet minister who did that.

Once they're caught out that is.

Originally Posted by Ab

Labour not knowing what it even stands for is at a level far more fundamental than just clumsy electioneering.

I agree that Labour are floundering. And I'm not really counting on them for any dynamic or flash policies. But I don't think Labour's fundamental principles have ever been unclear. And besides, I'm not unhappy about the Greens sweeping up more votes from the left.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Once they're caught out that is.

Kinda hard to punish someone for something if no-one knows they've done it.

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

But I don't think Labour's fundamental principles have ever been unclear.

Starter for ten: does Labour historically

a) Like immigration, or
b) Not like immigration

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

Kinda hard to punish someone for something if no-one knows they've done it.

Williamson doesn't strike me as a maverick (although I'm sure like most politicians he's thought of himself as one), but perhaps you're right. He still got there in the first place.

Starter for ten: does Labour historically

a) Like immigration, or
b) Not like immigration

You've lost me. Are you suggesting this relates to the fundamental principles I had in mind? My understanding of Labour's principles is their immigration policy would reflect what was best for all NZers at the time, and those who would be migrating here.

[adonis]

a) Like immigration, or
b) Not like immigration

Bit of an overly simplistic question don't you think?

Part of Auckland's housing problem is that foreign investors are buying up property... How does that discussion get reduced down to immigration vs anti immigration?

[BoyWonder]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

At least I'm not a moron who makes claims to know someone they do not.

Thanks for letting me in on the fantasy you have cooked up about me. Why you would want to concoct one is lost on me though.

Ok sorry Lightspeed, I should separate the person from the behaviour. You post crap like a moron and take rediculous stands like a douchebag but I'm sure you're a great guy.

[DrTiTus]

Someone's being diculous again.

[pxpx]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

My understanding of Labour's principles is their immigration policy would reflect what was best for all NZers at the time, and those who would be migrating here.

Originally Posted by http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/history-of-immigration/page-13

The election of a Labour government in 1935 did not improve prospects for aspiring immigrants. Loyal to its working-class roots, the Labour Party was suspicious of immigration. Prime Minister Michael Joseph Savage was blunt: ‘We are not going to pay anyone’s fare to come to New Zealand … until we have solved our economic problems.’ 1 The flow of paying immigrants was just reviving when war broke out in 1939.

"pragmatic" is not a word that the Labour party understand. The correct answer to Abs question, is b). Also known as "they tuk our jerbs!".

[pxpx]

Cunliffe: "I'm doing a good job"

[fixed_truth]

I wasn't expecting the most insightful and hysteria free commentary to come from Fran fucking O'Sullivan!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11278532

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by BoyWonder

Ok sorry Lightspeed, I should separate the person from the behaviour. You post crap like a moron and take rediculous stands like a douchebag but I'm sure you're a great guy.

You should stop being a dick and saying "I know you won't bother" when actually you don't know shit. But sure, I'm the ridiculous douchebag, you're just someone trying to contribute to the discussion.

[CCS]

His Holiness is highly offended

[spigalau]

"Millionaire businessman Donghua Liu spent more than $150,000 on the previous Labour government, including $100,000 on a bottle of wine signed by former prime minister Helen Clark at a party fundraiser."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11279089

And they call John Key Shonkey... rofl.. show us the records !

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by CCS

His Holiness is highly offended

Not really, I'm just not willing to let someone slip in a quiet "fuck you" and then try act all indignant when I respond. It's pathetic really. I guess you could argue I'm offended by pathetic behaviour?

[fixed_truth]

So, sure ... if Liu is telling the truth (but see previous caution about taking this assumption as proven), Labour has an "optics problem". It has to explain how as a party it managed to completely forget that this guy was splashing around tens-of-thousands of dollars at its fundraisers a mere 7 years ago. But a legal problem? I just don't think so.

http://www.pundit.co.nz/content/mayb...zzar-champagne

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Not really, I'm just not willing to let someone slip in a quiet "fuck you" and then try act all indignant when I respond. It's pathetic really. I guess you could argue I'm offended by pathetic behaviour?

You must have a hard time looking in the mirror then.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by spigalau

"Millionaire businessman Donghua Liu spent more than $150,000 on the previous Labour government, including $100,000 on a bottle of wine signed by former prime minister Helen Clark at a party fundraiser."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11279089

And they call John Key Shonkey... rofl.. show us the records !

#muppets

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Ab

But that's what would happen if Labour were a grownup political party, whereas we live in the real world. So Labour commenced hammering National and painting Liu as a shady crim, and then Cunliffe got asked if he'd ever come in contact with Liu NO NO CERTAINLY NOT had he ever advocated for Liu or his business with any sort of nudge nudge wink wink letter NO NO CERTAINLY NOT has Labour ever taken money from or enjoyed the hospitality of Mr Liu or his businesses NO NO CERTAINLY NOT BECAUSE YELLOW PERIL YELLOW PERIL.

... oh whoops, the Herald is claiming it has proof of at least $15,000 dollars in donations from Liu to Labour

... oh whoops, here's a nudge nudge wink wink letter from Labour MP Chris Carter to Immigration about Liu and his businesses

... oh whoops, here's a nudge nudge wink wink letter from David Cunliffe himself to Immigration about Liu and his businesses

... oh whoops, here's a picture of Labour Cabinet Minister Rick Barker at a Labour Party fundraising event with the Liu family

... oh whoops, here's documentation showing that Rick Barker, while part of a Labour Government, went to China, visited Liu, and went on a luxury river cruise hosted by Liu and his company.

More lols to add the the lolpocalypse:

... oh whoops, turns out Liu is only in NZ because he was personally given residency by Labour minister of immigration Damien O'connor against official advice

... oh whoops Liu made a signed statement admitting to over $150,000 in donations to the Labour Party

... oh whoops Liu visited Labour minister Rick Barker in Hawkes Bay, dining and staying in some fancy holiday lodge with him

Etc etc

This is a slow motion car crash. It's going to go on for weeks as more facepalm muppetry is drip fed to the media.

[crocos]

If Labour had a clue about PR, this image would sum things up:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...eStandards.jpg

But because they've been so shit about how they handled it, instead of looking pretty awesome, they just look like clueless muppets.

[BoyWonder]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Not really, I'm just not willing to let someone slip in a quiet "fuck you" and then try act all indignant when I respond. It's pathetic really. I guess you could argue I'm offended by pathetic behaviour?

Sorry for the hurt feelings Lightspeed. Get well soon!

[Lightspeed]

Oh thank you, your words are like a soothing balm.

Seriously, what's your point?

[Ab]

Originally Posted by crocos

If Labour had a clue about PR, this image would sum things up:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...eStandards.jpg

But because they've been so shit about how they handled it, instead of looking pretty awesome, they just look like clueless muppets.

As I said to Lightspeed earlier on, the letter thing is a small symptom. Not the big problem.

Labour is deeply, systematically dysfunctional if not outright criminally corrupt. This has been brought into sharp relief in recent days by a trainwreck of hypocrisy which includes among its elements a letter that David Cunliffe had forgotten* he wrote. To complain about "the letter" as if that's what this is all about is to miss the point entirely.

[crocos]

I see you couldn't handle the big picture

(Yeah, I should have linked it)

I concede those points entirely - this election is Nationals unless they do something monumentally stupid in the lead up to the election.

[Ab]

* or had been deliberately kept in the dark about by persons inside Labour