Fiji's Coastline 'given to natives'

[DigitalDroppings]

Originally posted by Wolf-age
But alas, being different from the Maori, I would have just kicked the shit out of you in the above mentioned situation, as if i'd let you get your hands on my stuff.

Not once did I state that I think Maori are animals that are beneath me, in fact I think I stated that they were people, given the same oppurtunitys as us (sometimes more) but didn't use them. Don't put words in my mouth, read what I say on comment on that, tool.

So here is another situation, lets leave New Zealand, shall we? All white, asian, indian (insert race other than Maori here) people, take evrything that we bought here and have created here and leave them the land that they so desperatly want, everything includes KFC, hydrophonics (Sp), cars etc. Then lets claim for the stuff that we traded them for as we are giving them back the land, have you any idea how much that stuff would be worth these days? Now lets be fair, we have returned the land, so of course we would like our trade items returned to us, right?
Even if the Maori could survive without everything we have bought here and developed, I still have a problem with the whole ownership of land issue, I mean originally Maori claimed not to own the land but to just live off it, they effectively didn't own anything until we came along, also the Moriori were here first, cannibilised and are now extinct. Shouldn't we be searching for ancient Maori feces to give the land to, because thats where we will find the Original inhabitants of NZ.

Think about that, you rightous prat.

I'm an average Maori, I have a good education (eg a Bachelor degree), I have never been arrested, don't have a criminal record. In fact the only 'bad' thing I have ever done is get a speed camera fine (which was was an offense committed by my 'whitey' wife). I have four brothers who have no criminal records. And frankly getting back to the rather silly issue of beach access - the only time I have been denied any access to a beach was from a 'white' farmer (who incindently didn't own the land he was preventing me from crossing) who was threatening me with a gun because of my slightly more tanned skin.

Personally I don't really care about who owns the foreshore; but when a stupid git teenager ^^ classes me as some sort of lowlife because my last name has more than 2 sllyables that really pisses me off.

[Torka]

Originally posted by Wolf-age
So an innocent white person suffers today because of a deal that they legally made in the past?

Originally posted by Wolf-age
I mean originally Maori claimed not to own the land but to just live off it, they effectively didn't own anything until we came along, also the Moriori were here first, cannibilised and are now extinct. Shouldn't we be searching for ancient Maori feces to give the land to, because thats where we will find the Original inhabitants of NZ.

Que? You first support your argument against compensation by saying that innocent people shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of their ancestors, then you support it again by stating that Maori don't deserve compensation because their ancestors killed the Moriori.

[bradman]

Heh - fuck knows where 'wolf-age' gets his 'history' from, try doing some university papers on the subject dude...

You want some parrallels to 'white-male culture' trying to bury another culture than look into Mexican history and Texas... or the Australian Aboriginies.

heh - it makes me laugh that you say NZ shouldve 'taken the same route as the Aussies did with the Aboriginies'

WTF do you think they DID try to do?

You ever heard of 'Cultural Assimilation'? Thats where one culture wipes out another one by forcing the subordinate culture to conform to the dominant ones way of life... When you start crapping on about 'Moari Schools' etc its really you getting all worked up because someone else dares not to be forced to conform to YOUR idea of how to live...

Gah - dunno WTF Im bothering to post - narrow minded pricks like you dont want to know the truth - you just take the shit your parents shovelled you and pass it to the next generation...

[cyc]

Originally posted by Wolf-age
I would happily help another 'decent' human being, but through my life i've only ever met a few of these from that culture.

Given that you lead of life of pathetic ignorance, owing to an extremely myopic worldview, I am not sure whether your experience is representative of anything significant. That you'd choose to stereotype a whole bunch of people with such a broad brush makes me wonder whether the education system did ANY work on you at all.

Or were you brought up on KKK teachings? Incidentally, I am sure a sensitive little fellow like you would realise that not all rapists are Maori. Moreover, I am sure that a decent, law-abiding, morally righteous, Light-Side following, and generally sanctimonious fellow like yourself would be above wishing someone else's mother being assaulted just because the person disagrees with you? Damn, no dice.

So, fuck you and your bigotry, you rancid piece of worthless oxygen-wasting shit. That you continue to bask in that light of glory of yours truly amazes.

[circa]

cyc are you a maori?

[cyc]

Originally posted by circa
cyc are you a maori?

No, and that was established VERY early on in this thread. I don't see what difference this makes, however, as compensating people for past injustices that clearly continue to affect them is perfectly compatible with decent morality.

So, what's your point again?

[Wolf-age]

DigitalDroppings: If everything that you have stated is true, then you are not an average Maori, I don't believe Maori that take the oppurtunitys given to them and avoid participating in crime are lowlives, actually I think that they should be proud of themselves. You my friend, are a perfect example of what I was saying earlier, having taken the oppurtunitys given to you, you have done well and are equal with any half decent white person that did the same as you, hear that...EQUAL. You worked for it, deserved it and got it, well done. Also, I don't agree or condone what that farmer did to you, that's way out of line, don't get me wrong, I don't think that all white people are good and fine, if there is a white person out there that doesn't take what oppurtunitys come his way and chooses to slack through life, I have the same contempt for him if he trys to get benefits. So it's not just a Maori thing, it's just that it is this time round, in this particular argument.
Calling me a stupid git teenager, sorry, don't see how that fits me. I'm not stupid, thanks.

Torka: I was running through Boyd's and cyc's point of view, if we absolutly had to return the land to it's rightful owner, it would/should not go to the Maori, as the Moriori were here before them, and who knows how they got here etc. I don't really believe we should go looking through ancient feces.

Bradman: Me going on about Maori in schools, let me explain, as I went to a school that was rougly half-half Maori to White ratio I could see how they worked, they would sell drugs at the school (there were a couple of whites that also did this, but predominatly Maori), they would get in groups of 3 or more and beat the shit out of a lone European, completely unprovoked attacks (please understand that I was not racist in the least until I was attacked three times for 'fun' by large groups), now I don't see how this is them refusing to conform to European life, All i saw out of these situations was that they were violent, drugged and uneducated idiots. I don't see myself as narrow minded, and as soon as one of you can present an argument that makes me think and feel differently about those little fucks that I met at Te Puke high school I would gladly have a re-think about my stance on this issue, but at this stage all i've seen is accusations and guilt trips. Get this into your heads, I don't give two flying fucks about what my fathers father and your fathers father did, it was none of my buisness, or yours. Also my parents didn't shovel me any of this, I found out for myself and made my own decisions as I have gone through life. My cousins are half caste, they try their hardest and I respect them, although that said, my eldest cousin is in jail, serving for fraud and armed robbery, so I don't respect him and never will. See the difference?

In short, until you know the circumstances you should just fuck up.

[Wolf-age]

Originally posted by cyc
So, fuck you and your bigotry, you rancid piece of worthless oxygen-wasting shit. That you continue to bask in that light of glory of yours truly amazes.

Read my last post cyc, where I clearly state that I would feel the same if a white man was slacking and trying to get benefits. So shove your bigotry remark. You have to understand that I wouldn't really hope that your mother got raped, it was just an insult that I felt like throwing at you, I would actually be quite symphathetic if she was raped. I'm a nice person too!

Eat shit arsehole

[cyc]

Originally posted by Wolf-age
Read my last post cyc, where I clearly state that I would feel the same if a white man was slacking and trying to get benefits. So shove your bigotry remark.

Right... the standard "I will throw a heap of bigotted BS and then qualify it with some remark, in the hopes of looking better in the eyes of anyone who's not retarded" trick. Man, where have I seen that before?

Keep on stereotyping and feeling superior -- I am sure this makes you a real man!

[Bread]

Someone with a little bit more knowledge (eg, cyc or BOYD) will probably be able to be more accurate here, but I'm 90% sure that the whole 'Maori arrived and slaughtered the Moriori' is no longer accepted as ever happening?


Plus, even if that is the case, your argument doesn't make sense. We're not dealing with what the Maori did to the Moriori, we're dealing with the illegal activities which took place under British law.

[circa]

Originally posted by cyc


So, what's your point again?

you're not a maori

i am

fuckup before i drop you

[Wolf-age]

Yeah, like you know what's going on in my head! How do you do it man?

Oh I know, you just talk shit anfd assume things. Of course, where have I seen that before?

Keep on making bullshit assumptions about people - I'm sure this makes you feel like a real hero.

[Wolf-age]

Originally posted by Bread
Someone with a little bit more knowledge (eg, cyc or BOYD) will probably be able to be more accurate here, but I'm 90% sure that the whole 'Maori arrived and slaughtered the Moriori' is no longer accepted as ever happening?


Plus, even if that is the case, your argument doesn't make sense. We're not dealing with what the Maori did to the Moriori, we're dealing with the illegal activities which took place under British law.

So if it did happen, are you suggesting that we just forget about it? If thats the case lets just forget about those 'illegal activities' and start fresh eh?

[Bread]

Er, no. The former wasn't in violation of our own laws, because we weren't involved. This isn't true with the latter. As I see it, that's pretty much what it boils down to. The law was broken, and therefore there should be reperations. It's not like a executing the grandson of a dead murderer; like Boyd said, it can be done without causing you any grief.

I ask again, what do you think this will cost? Nobody's going to lose their home over this. NZ is a wealthy country, it can be done without breaking anybody's back. And in the end, even if you look at it purely from an economic viewpoint, can we really continue to have an eighth of our population languish the way it does now? Especially with the way our white population is aging.

Disclaimer: I'm always weary of posting in these threads as there are those with wayyy more expertise on the whole thing who can back up their claims with far greater auththority than I. Shame not everyone feels this way.

[::Shocker]

Originally posted by circa
you're not a maori

i am

fuckup before i drop you

stfu circa, the adults are talking.

[Wolf-age]

Originally posted by Bread
Er, no. The former wasn't in violation of our own laws, because we weren't involved. This isn't true with the latter. As I see it, that's pretty much what it boils down to. The law was broken, and therefore there should be reperations. It's not like a executing the grandson of a dead murderer; like Boyd said, it can be done without causing you any grief.

I don't care about that, if they aren't working for it, they don't deserve it. I don't get free land handed to me if I sit on my ass.

[Bread]

Originally posted by Wolf-age
I don't care about that, if they aren't working for it, they don't deserve it. I don't get free land handed to me if I sit on my ass.

And how exactly is what you care about at all relevent to this situation?

[Wuffle]

Originally posted by cyc
Given that you lead of life of pathetic ignorance, owing to an extremely myopic worldview, I am not sure whether your experience is representative of anything significant. That you'd choose to stereotype a whole bunch of people with such a broad brush makes me wonder whether the education system did ANY work on you at all.

Or were you brought up on KKK teachings? Incidentally, I am sure a sensitive little fellow like you would realise that not all rapists are Maori. Moreover, I am sure that a decent, law-abiding, morally righteous, Light-Side following, and generally sanctimonious fellow like yourself would be above wishing someone else's mother being assaulted just because the person disagrees with you? Damn, no dice.

So, fuck you and your bigotry, you rancid piece of worthless oxygen-wasting shit. That you continue to bask in that light of glory of yours truly amazes.

Fuckin word to that cyc good shit.

[circa]

man you guys get so cut up when someone has a different opinion

[Wuffle]

Yeah normally i'd agree, but when you assume all maori are drug smoking gottadollabro's, thats when you start to sound racist and need to be told to sit the the fuck down.

[doppelgänger of someone]

An unbrigable chasm between two groups of people: one group thinks it is fair not to do anything special to Maori because that's how fairness works, another group think it is fair to do something special to Maori because they were shafted in the past.

Now I will try to bridge this gap. Without the history of colonial NZ it is fair to treat Maori just as any other group i.e. no special treatment. Think of the history then it is another story, especially confiscations of Maori land by the Crown AND THEN GIVING IT TO PAKEHA. Of course one can say 'this is the fault of our ancestors, not ours' therefore you should not be responsible, but wouldn't you want to be a bigger man than your ancestors by giving back something to Maori?

I think the heart of the issue is the seeming redistribution of resources at the expense of others, Pakeha vs. Maori, a zero sum game. This ISN'T a zero sum game, EVERYONE will benefit in the long term if the treaty issues are settled properly. It means we can finally build a state that is truely democratic and liberal, like an ideal America, without the shackles of the colonial past, without that piece of crumbling document called Treaty of Waitangi.

Considering Pakeha will mostly be the single biggest ethnic group in NZ, I think in long term the settlement of treaty issues will benefit Pakeha more than any other group.

[Boyd-Work]

Originally posted by doppelgänger of someone
I think the heart of the issue is the seeming redistribution of resources at the expense of others, Pakeha vs. Maori, a zero sum game. This ISN'T a zero sum game, EVERYONE will benefit in the long term if the treaty issues are settled properly. It means we can finally build a state that is truely democratic and liberal, like an ideal America, without the shackles of the colonial past, without that piece of crumbling document called Treaty of Waitangi.

Thank you. I've tried to say this repeatedly, yet those among us for whom adequate reading comprehension is slightly beyond reach just don't seem to be able to grasp the idea that we don't want to take their house from them.

Wolf-age: You have consistently shown yourself to be a thoroughly petulent, immature, rednecked little boy who's got far too big of a mouth for his own good. You've shown time and again that not only do you not understand the issues at hand, but you're deliberately ignorant of them, and that you take some kind of pride in it, a smug sort of pleasure in degrading those opposed to you by not even bothering to READ WHAT THEY WRITE.

Just for once it would be nice to have a face to face meeting with someone like you, who's all too clever behind a computer screen but someone who at the same time, obviously and for all others to see, is totally misinformed and unqualified and would be put to shame in any real discussion by anyone with even a casual acquaintance with reality.

If you want to continue this on ICQ, please send me a message. I would be only too happy to shoot down every point you make in a forum where you can't just pretend to win an argument by shouting as loud as you can or by ignoring what other people say and writing the same mindless drivel over and over.

[BillHague]

I'd just like to say that after much heated arguing, Boyd and cyc managed to change my mind.

I just wish there was some way of settling the issue so that it doesn't drag on forever.

[cyc]

Originally posted by Bread
Er, no. The former wasn't in violation of our own laws, because we weren't involved. This isn't true with the latter. As I see it, that's pretty much what it boils down to...

It's not like a executing the grandson of a dead murderer; like Boyd said, it can be done without causing you any grief.

That couldn't have been put much better. We want to claim that we have laws and are law-abiding and therefore we need to play to our own rules.

To the kiddies like Wolf-age, here's a hint: If you keep on supporting the status quo and keep allowing Maori to be shat on, it really doesn't bode well for your own moral worth and how the decent and fair-minded will see you.

And here's another thing to contemplate: Did you know that you are partially right about a lot of Maori being caught up in grievance mode? The only thing you missed out on is who's responsible for it. Believe me, I've seen for myself how young Maori are being stirred by their elders to become more militant and extreme, in order for some self-interested people to maintain their domineering positions within settlement negotiations with the Crown and so forth.

For as long as the majority keep thinking that being unfair is a Cool Thing, these selfish minority will be able to take advantage of your acts to hold the good people in Maoridom back, thereby holding YOU back as well. Now sit down and think of how much this country will benefit when you get 500k+ people content and truly integrated into the mainstream.

(Edit) Didn't see BillHague's reply.... nice to see you going to the Light Side, man Serious, I do agree with your sentiments -- I think ultimately Maoridom will have to accept some form of universal, full and final settlement, but it has to be just. The optimistic side of me still holds out hope for this - afterall, the Canadian government managed it with quite a massive collective of Inuit people.

[Kryten]

Originally posted by BillHague

I just wish there was some way of settling the issue so that it doesn't drag on forever.

Agreed, and this is where I see a lot of resentment coming from.

[cyc]

Originally posted by Kryten
Agreed, and this is where I see a lot of resentment coming from.

I might as well expand on this theme in a proper reply.

Realistically speaking, much of the resentment is totally unfounded. MOST full and final settlements with individual iwi are grossly in the Crown's favour. Much of the time, when lands are "given" back to Maori, public access is still guaranteed - effectively, they get to exercise spiritual control over the land without the rights of fee simple title holders.

As I see it, worries over settlements revolve generally around two issues:

(1) Those Maoris want too much and if they keep on claiming, the country will be bankrupt: My reply to this is that NO ONE is dumb enough to think that crippling this country economically does anyone any good.

Moreover, individual iwi have been incredibly decent, when it comes to living up to their side of the bargain in full and final settlements. This is in spite of numerous top legal academics (both Maori and non-Maori) generally agreeing that they are generally so outrageously in the Crown's favour that the agreements garnered are oppressive and potentially voidable by a court.

(2) Those Maoris want to throw us off the lakes, lands, and beaches that we've been paying visits to since our childhood. UNFAIR: For starters, that one's been going to some place a lot doesn't necessarily mean you have a legitimate expectation (in the moral sense) that you can keep on going.

Secondly, most settlements involve iwi voluntarily agreeing to allow previous "public" lands to continue to provide for public access. They just want to be consulted and to have the occasion rights of veto, which are rarely exercised. Recognition of past wrongs is a major theme here and, IIRC, Ngai Tahu got Mt Cook "back" and immediately gifted it back to eevryone else. How much better can things get? Everyone is happy.

Finally, these people aren't stupid. When they get their top tourism lands back or receive a lake as settlement, they know the best way to achieve best value is to open things up, not to operate a closed shop. Opportunities are created for EVERYONE in such cases.

In short, assuming that Maori hold to existent patterns of settlement and don't suddenly lose all their marbles, EVERYONE wins when settlements occur.

[Redneck]

Why don't they just settle this all with a good old fashioned woman-swap? They get some of our blonde white hotties and we get some of their exotic island hotties.

[Wolf-age]

Shite, getting annoyed eh boys?

Wuffle: Read hrough my posts, where I say that i'd treat a white person that sat on his ass doing nothing all day the exact same way. Sit the fuck down.

Doppleganger of someone: Couldn't have said that any better myself, except when it comes to being the bigger man and giving something back to them, from my experience with them I wouldn't want to give them sweet fuck all. Simply because nearly all my expereinces with that culture are bad ones.

Boyd: I'm sure that in your eyes I am coming off as a petulent, immature, rednecked little boy who's got far too big of a mouth for his own good, but of course i'm going to, because I have a different opinion than you. Until you learn to accept that other peoples opinions can and will differ from your own, I would suggest sitting down and trying to learn how to relax and accept that not everyone is as mainstream as you. If i go against the grain (which in this discussion board I believe I am) all you've got to say is "fuck off, you prick, confrom cunt" basically. As for meeting me face to face, I have no problem with that, as I am exactually the same irl as I am here, there are people on these boards that know me irl, and believe me I wouldn't have the slightest problem in sitting down and discussing this with you (maybe you could even bring cyc so that you two have a bandwagon). Not once have I tryed to shout down everyone here, read all my posts again, they are as maturely written as either yours or cycs. Maybe if you actually read what I wrote and responded approprietly to my points then I wouldn't have to repeat them, in the vague hope that you may catch them the next time round. I find it funny that you move from the actual argument at hand and onto attacking my reading skills. Try harder.

Cyc: I am not allowing Maoris to be shat on, they are given the same oppurtunitys that I was, they didn't take them or if they did they put in shit all effort. I'm not supporting the Maoris being the second class citizen (sp?), I've reserved that for all the people in any race that don't work for what they get. Do you understand that, or do I need to repeat it (especially for Boyd)? Now what chance do you think that everyone in New Zealand would get along if the Maori get the land anyhow? It would just start more fights, put it this way, it's a human nature case at it's finest...Of course there would still be more fighting, arguing etc, not everyone is just gonna drop it all and hold hands because people like you and Boyd forced the government to give away land to the Maori, I dare say it would esculate. Oh by the way, I'm not a kiddie.

[Wuffle]

Originally posted by Wolf-age
Shite, getting annoyed eh boys?

Wuffle: Read hrough my posts, where I say that i'd treat a white person that sat on his ass doing nothing all day the exact same way. Sit the fuck down.

Doppleganger of someone: Couldn't have said that any better myself, except when it comes to being the bigger man and giving something back to them, from my experience with them I wouldn't want to give them sweet fuck all. Simply because nearly all my expereinces with that culture are bad ones.

Boyd: I'm sure that in your eyes I am coming off as a petulent, immature, rednecked little boy who's got far too big of a mouth for his own good, but of course i'm going to, because I have a different opinion than you. Until you learn to accept that other peoples opinions can and will differ from your own, I would suggest sitting down and trying to learn how to relax and accept that not everyone is as mainstream as you. If i go against the grain (which in this discussion board I believe I am) all you've got to say is "fuck off, you prick, confrom cunt" basically. As for meeting me face to face, I have no problem with that, as I am exactually the same irl as I am here, there are people on these boards that know me irl, and believe me I wouldn't have the slightest problem in sitting down and discussing this with you (maybe you could even bring cyc so that you two have a bandwagon). Not once have I tryed to shout down everyone here, read all my posts again, they are as maturely written as either yours or cycs. Maybe if you actually read what I wrote and responded approprietly to my points then I wouldn't have to repeat them, in the vague hope that you may catch them the next time round. I find it funny that you move from the actual argument at hand and onto attacking my reading skills. Try harder.

Cyc: I am not allowing Maoris to be shat on, they are given the same oppurtunitys that I was, they didn't take them or if they did they put in shit all effort. I'm not supporting the Maoris being the second class citizen (sp?), I've reserved that for all the people in any race that don't work for what they get. Do you understand that, or do I need to repeat it (especially for Boyd)? Now what chance do you think that everyone in New Zealand would get along if the Maori get the land anyhow? It would just start more fights, put it this way, it's a human nature case at it's finest...Of course there would still be more fighting, arguing etc, not everyone is just gonna drop it all and hold hands because people like you and Boyd forced the government to give away land to the Maori, I dare say it would esculate. Oh by the way, I'm not a kiddie.

Listen up you shitsicle, it seems to me you've got as much smarts as Todd from the drink driving ads. Who cares if you'd treat the white person the same way for doing fuckall, my point is your just immediately throwing maori into that category straight up because you think you know "maori people".

Its called being a Bigot, look it up freud.

[Wolf-age]

No i'm not, when they are born they are the same as me, decisions that some of them make turn them into the arseholes that i'm talking about.

Eat shit.

[Wuffle]

Like EVERY OTHER FUCKING RACE U TWAT.

JESUS, FUCK YOU'RE A STUPID CUNT.

ARrrgh!

[Wolf-age]

Yes thats right, like other races. It's just that this thread is about Maori, so i'm talking about Maori.

Relax fuckstick, you look like a homo.

[Boyd-Work]

Right, this is going to be long.

Not replying to your points, Wolf-age? Doing nothing but insulting your reading skills? This is why I have cause to question your reading skills:

You
Cyc: We swapped things for the land that they are trying to claim back, muskets, food, alcohol etc. Ever take hisotry?

<snip>

so lets get this straight, I should have my land force fully confiscated off my by the government and then given to a Maori, because i'm white and my ancestor swapped the Maoris ancenstor for his land with food, muskets etc. As far as i'm concerned the maoris agreed to the swap

All class, as if what concerns you has anything to do with what actually happened.

Me, not replying to any of your points
You MIGHT want to brush up on your own history before you start cracking wise at other people about the same. Even if paying people in muskets and blankets were acceptable (which it isn't, read British directives from the time.. Lord Norrie would disagree with you pretty starkly there), you're quite happily ignoring the massive seizures of land that took place with no compensation whatsoever.

So, in many cases there was expropriation of massive tracts of land with no exchange at all, and even when there were exchanges they were so transparently unfair that they ran counter to the 'standard' the British government set for itself.

Then you wrote this:

You
So an innocent white person suffers today because of a deal that they legally made in the past?

To which you claim I didn't reply with this:

Me
The magna carta was penned before you were born too, do you think that means you shouldn't have the rights established within it?

.. to which you still have not furnished an answer. Do legal agreements made in the past have force today or not? Obviously legal agreements made in the past are binding today, do you really question this?

Next:

You
It isn't related to me in any way, so therefore I couldnt give a fuck about them and would prefer that things would stay the same for me.

From my point of view, this is bullshit, they went to the same school as me and if they had knuckled down and got some sort of education they could have gotten a decent job and been able to do all the things I have done.

To which I replied:

Me
Maori had an entire country stolen from them, right before they were plunged into a totally foreign economic system in which they were systematically run down to its lowest rungs. It's a massive handicap which was imposed on them. In contrast, your fathers along with mine and the those of the rest of NZ white society had a huge advantage which was never deserved.

If you don't think that has trickled down and reflects itself in the current socio-economic situation throughout this country, then you are EXACTLY the kind of person who needs to sit back and have a real think about things; rather than simply throwing your arms in the air and spinning some bullshit about how it's actually white people who are oppressed in this country.

So basically, the fact that Maori had their possessions stolen from them placed them at a disadvantage which stood in contrast to the unfair advantage European settlers gained. Maori today aren't working shit jobs and making fuck all money because they're lazy and stupid, they're in that position because they were crippled economically by the settlers. Once again, if I take your assets from you, it's going to make your children's life harder, particularly in comparison to my kids when I give them your house. But, as we'll see shortly, you conveniently ignored this.

And finally, regarding the 'responsibility' issue:

You
Boyd: I don't see why I should be denied things and have to pay the Maori of today, for something I had no control over and was not involved in in any way. Thats like me coming and finding you and kicking you in the teeth because your cousins uncles son called me a dick.

To which I, once again ignoring your points, replied with:

Me
What you're saying is that just because something happened in the past, you should be able to bury it. What that effectively means is that I should be able to throw you off your land today, and as long as I can keep you quiet for a few years then your children will have no right to press the issue with my children.

Right?

And when my kids get rich off your land and your kids end up having to go and work in a factory making jandals at the age of 15, because their father - who died at the age of 50 because he couldn't afford private healthcare - couldn't leave them any assets and they can't make ends meet long enough to go to university, that's still just going to be tough shit.

Right?

What's more, if your children were to have the NERVE to complain about the situation, my kids would be well within their rights to complain about their greed and arrogance.

Right?

To this, your only reply was:

You
But alas, being different from the Maori, I would have just kicked the shit out of you in the above mentioned situation, as if i'd let you get your hands on my stuff.

Well, that was clever of you wasn't it? Unfortunately, it's a prime example of the very thing you accuse me of. How about answering the point that was made rather than trying to be funny? As for 'just kicking the shit out of me', do you really think that the British and the native Maori were equally armed? Jesus

So yeah, that's me not replying to any of your points.

As for a couple of your other arguments: You glibly said that it's fair in the end because we gave them KFC, but that's incredibly shallow. They had a functioning society before the Europeans arrived; and I might add they had it without guns, influenza, rats, possums, and an oppressive government that until very recently felt the need to systematically stamp out their identity and culture by doing things like banning the use of their own language. Don't make out like European society has been some huge win for the Maori. And even if it were, so what? I can't impose a deal on you and then claim the deal is fair just because you got some kind of benefit out of it. Again, the civilised world just doesn't WORK like that. As for the Moriori, is there even any conclusive proof that they actually existed? Even if they did, and even if the Maori were vicious enough to wipe them out, exactly how the fuck does that get US off the hook? Once again, we have laws that bind us. You don't get to just sit back and say that two wrongs make a right, that's just not how we operate in a country of laws.

Regarding the general issue of responsibility: We may not be responsible for actually stealing the land. I'm not claiming you personally went back in time and did it yourself. But as I have said to you, and as you have repeatedly failed to grasp, we ARE responsible for not rectifying the imbalance that has developed. Every day we perpetuate this imbalance by not making amends for it, we render ourselves progressively more complicit. The imbalance would never have existed if things were done by the book. We know this happened, we know it was wrong, we know that that injustice has effects that persist today.

For all your rhetoric about how equal we all are, you are just blatantly ignoring the fact that each successive generation of Maori has had a totally unwarranted financial handicap placed on it by virtue of the fact that they essentially had an entire country stolen from them. They should never have had to be in the position they are today.

You know damn well that this is true, and you know that if the situation I outlined just above actually happened that you'd absolutely expect your kids to be compensated. So why the double standard? For you to sit there and claim that there's no obligation on us to offer compensation just because something took place in the past is, to be frank, thoughtless. What happened is counter to every principle of civilised, liberal democracy and we have a duty to put it right. Today more than ever.

And one more time: This does NOT mean throwing people out of their homes. It simply means making amends in ways that are more practical. This means financial contributions, affirmative action, educational programs, venture capital, and so forth.

Even if you don't believe in the need to atone for past wrongs: We as a country that has an aging population which is going to require massive amounts of financial support in the coming decades cannot afford to allow this huge segment of our population to continue to operate at its current level of productivity. We need to seriously mobilise and upskill our entire labour base in order to support our people and our infrastructure in the long term, or we are seriously looking at economic implosion. This isn't rocket science, economists have been singing this tune for years. Incidentally, this is why we need MORE immigrants, not less - but that's another discussion entirely.

Your only counter to this is that it will 'cause fights'. You offer no evidence whatsoever to support this, at least not it seems other than what you and your mates down at the pub think. Sorry, but you're talking to serious people and that just isn't good enough.

[Wolf-age]

Boyd, excellent post, i'm sorry for saying that you didn't address all my issues, I was wrong. Although I still disagree with you and will not willfully contribute to compensating todays Maori.
Also the Maori language has not been banned in New Zealand, in fact it is promoted, We have Maori television now, did you know?

We obviouslly see things differently, lived different lives, my way led to me not wanting to compensate todays Maori, but alot of my feelings towards them come through personal attacks against me from them. So while it might be morally correct, it's still not practical to give them land for doing nothing these days. Recently I was thumbing through the newspaper looking at courses that were available to the public when I saw a hospitality course that was being run for Maori youth, and on completition of the course they were awarded a free cellphone, "wow that's pretty choice" I think to myself and carry on looking, what do I see? I see the same Hospitality course running for European/other races, no mention of any cellphone at the end though. What am I supposed to make of this? That these days they have to bribe young Maori to educate themselves? Now thats truly shocking.

Also I didn't say that it was fair because we have them KFC, I said it was impossible for them to live their lives without the modern society that the Europeans brought with them.

Ah well, basically for me it goes like this: I dislike alot of Maori that turn down the chnaces that they are given and replace them with crime, drugs, fighting etc, I like the Maoris that succeed through their own hard work, and not through benefits awarded to them that the rest of society cannot have. Unfortunatly I don't see alot of successful Maori, although I see alot of successful white people, and it's not all because of the past, when they are born they are given the same chances as everyone else, finance isn't the be all and end all. Even if their familys finance was SO bad that they simply could not survive, that is when benefits should be handed out, not to any school leaver that doesn't want to work. Do you understand my point of view Boyd?

[Boybland]

The only problem with trying to right the wrongs of our ancestors is that after careful calculation it turns out the women own everything anyway.

[Wolf-age]

So true.